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What We Ask from Stories




Media as a teacher, part 2 (part 1 here)

In the last part of this series I discussed whether media is obligated to teach us something or not. This time, I will focus my attention on the other side of this interactions, the audience.

Whenever we start watching or reading something new, there are a certain list of filters that the content must pass through for us to continue. A checklist, if you will. Everyone has their own checklist, depending on our idiosyncrasies. We tend to be partial to certain genres and formats: Do you like soft Sci-Fi or Fantasy? Series or serials? Procedural, monster-of-the-week, long arcs? Then there come the finer details, like world building, very specific types of comedy, tropes we enjoy (blonde and brunette wlw, anyone?) or don’t enjoy (love at first sight makes me roll me eyes to infinity), and where the line is drawn on our suspension of disbelief.

We all have a little gatekeeper inside our brains. Creators know this, and they will attempt to pander to whichever audience at which they’re aiming their product.

What we expect of content in terms of styles and genres varies immensely. We’d have to discuss a particular segment of the market if we were to talk specifics. Our little gatekeeper however, is usually not only interested in whether we like the world and the characters. There is a deeper level, especially with the content we don’t consume casually, that demands certain standards to be met.

Moral, idealistic standards that have a lot to do with our context, our culture and our education. This, of course, is also very different for everyone, especially those from different cultures and, as I mentioned in the last article, different generations.

Generationally, it could be said there is something all of us want. A standard we all want to see met.

What do we demand?


And… that’s it, really.

It sounds repetitive, but this is the biggest push in fandom right now in terms of moral standards. There isn’t really a call for “family friendly” content demanding less violence or sex in a general sense, for instance. But there is for more male frontal nudity, for example. Racial, sexual, ethnic, religious, disability, neurological, and body diversity is the topic around which most discussions on fandom platforms like Tumblr and Twitter revolve. It has been going on for a while now, so it has seeped into the mainstream.

For multiple years in a row, The Hollywood Reporter’s round tables have broached the topic of equality, especially int their “Actress Roundtables.” Most prime-time and prestige awards in Hollywood have incorporated this into host monologues and winner speeches, and TV especially incorporates it into their narratives. As it becomes the mainstream, the discussion becomes more open and bolder. Like this actress conversation published by Porter, in which Ellen Pompeo (a.k.a. Meredith Grey) openly called out the magazine for lack of diversity on set.

The industry has taken some steps. Achieving equality—and more importantly, intersectional equality—in media is no easy feat though, especially given the power structures involved in their machinations. Part of the job is the audience’s in demanding that equality or else, but much of the heavy lifting must be done from inside, where the Ellen Pompeos of Hollywood must take a stand to be allies and defenders of the minorities who have been left behind. And that is just Hollywood. The state of other, smaller industries must be addressed locally as well, but that’s really a story for another day.

Whenever something comes out that is considered a good example of diversity, there will usually be praise on fandom platforms pointing out the impact it has. Like so many wonderful videos of little girls dressed up as Wonder Woman or Shuri, with parents excited their little girls have a positive role model. Or little boys idolizing Black Panther, the first mainstream hero who looks like them. The word positive comes out to play, and those examples are undeniably positive. Sometimes though, the lines do get blurred about what is positive and what isn’t.

Put in fandom terms, we want positive messages in the stories we consume. In today’s world, that constitutes fair representation across the board. Or wait, do we want fair messages and positive representation? Are they the same?

Fair and/or Positive

It gets a wee bit tricky here, as what is fair and what is positive differs from little gatekeeper to little gatekeeper. Which is better? Shouldn’t representation be fair and positive? And what constitutes a positive and fair message?

My head hurts.

Characters, their arcs and their resolutions, as well as the broader social subjects a story deals with are how these messages get across to us. Most content creators try to keep their shows relevant by keeping them topical, some more subtly, some more ham-fisted. For example, the latest Supergirl season’s giant in-your-face migration allegory (so far so good) or The Handmaid’s Tale’s radical take on a world where sexism takes over.

There seems to be a consensus that the representation of both these things is a good thing. Whether it is fair or positive, it’s harder to say. Some would argue the aliens as a metaphor for today’s migrants might constitute unfair whitewashing. Many would say The Handmaid’s Tale takes things way too far to be positive. It might be well and good to paint a brutal picture of how far sexism can go, but there does—there must—come a point where it might turn into torture porn.

A more extremist part of fandom takes the word “positive” at absolute face value. This portion of fandom will demand that the representation of the minority in question be positive in the “always good and right” sense, and the message fair in that “nothing bad must ever happen to this person.” I wish I could believe no one means it seriously, but I have witnessed how high emotions run in regards to this topic.

The idea that everything that happens in fiction needs to be squeaky clean is frankly egregious. There needs to be drama, conflict, and that cannot happen if only good things are represented on screen—good characters, healthy relationships, happy outcomes. That would lead to the antiquated and simplistic Pure Darkness vs. Pure Light conflict. We might be able to consume that from retro content knowing its context, but the reality is that it doesn’t fly with modern audiences, at all.

It’s impossible not to think about the fact that many of the marginalized groups seeking representation have been misrepresented and even exploited in media for so long that it may physically hurt to see negative aspects of their lives and relationships. I understand, to a degree. Stories are not personal, except they are. But if we presume to sincerely analyze or seriously critique a piece of work for its ethics, we should take a long hard look into ourselves and see just how much of the argument is raw emotion and how much is actually rational. I am a believer that we need a balance of those two.

For starters, we need to be able to differentiate reality and fiction, not just in practice, but in our emotions as well. That takes something that not all of us have: media literacy.

We Don’t Get It

Media has grown at exponential rates in the past century, and there is simply no way its study and especially education about it can keep up. And so, media keeps growing, and we are five steps behind it. Media literacy is basically the ability to analyze the different types of media and understand the messages being sent through them, with their undercurrent and context, to a point where we’re able to generate those messages effectively.

Suffice to say, this isn’t something that’s widely taught in basic education just yet. Even less so for those who went to school ten, twenty years ago. It is enough to see how a tweet about a rumor can cause an uproar and forever stain someone’s reputation. This is an obstacle both in our understanding of the messages sent through media and our understanding of the best way to send the messages we want or need from media.

It is how we might confuse the representation of something with its endorsement, or not realize its endorsement under the guise of representation. The idea I touched on in Part 1 was that of “Healthy Ships” for example, wherein fandom demands the relationships depicted on TV especially, be healthy. While I would agree that the portrayal of a toxic relationship as desirable (endorsement) is a big no, I’m not against them appearing in stories (depiction). As someone said in the comments, if the toxic aspects of that relationship are dealt with accordingly, there is nothing negative about representing it. Especially given that toxic relationships are a thing in real life.

Now, if the creators of a show are portraying a toxic relationship as desirable and good (*cough* Gossip Girl’s Chuck and Blair *cough*) it really does take a strong media education to be able to resist that pull. Narratives are entrancing, and no one is immune to giving into their pull. And since awareness among creators is spreading spectacularly slowly, it should be a priority. This is especially tricky for fictional or fictionalized stories: film, TV series, comic books, video games… Since they are also entertainment, many still refuse to see that what they showcase has an impact in real life.

Those of us who do are still trudging through muddled waters, trying to decipher what it is we need from it, and what really is the right way for media to behave in order to teach us, or society, something good, positive, and fair.

Going back to our little gatekeeper, these ideals get intermingled with our personal microcosms. So what we want, as a gut reaction, may be a little more biased than we initially realize.

What We (Secretly) Want

We want to feel individually represented.

To feel satisfied with the resolution of the stories we care about.

For the moral resolution of plots and character arcs to coincide with our moral code.

To have the characters we personally identified with treated fairly. Scratch that. To have them treated like we’d like to be treated or have things happen to them that we would like to happen to us.

We want to feel personally vindicated.

Are these wants fair? Who knows. In my honest opinion, a lot of what we want out of pure instinct for ourselves tends to be irrational. Like watching someone get something for free and secretly wishing it were you, even if you really are happy for the person who benefited. We’re complicated beasts. Complicated beasts who just so happen to live in a world of instant gratification. A lot of us aren’t used to not getting what we want when we want it, most especially in the case of information and entertainment.

Our individual desires are also mixed with our desire to be part of something. Culture, and in this case fandom culture, is a big part of it. At this point, either you are part of the equality conversation—for or against—or you aren’t part of fandom. Or you may constitute that portion of the Internet that bemoans an inability to enjoy anything ever because other fans won’t let you.

A while ago I wrote about the common conflation between calling something out for considering it problematic in general versus complaining about something we feel displeased about. When it comes to media as a teacher, this conflation can happen when it comes to demanding what media should be teaching us and especially young people.

Think of the Children

This is a bit of a segway, but I didn’t feel like I could leave it out of the conversation:  When we talk about media as a teacher, the subject of children, teenagers, and young adult audiences comes to the forefront. “Children are like a sponge,” my mom always says. What we demand in terms of media teachers is often in regards of the molding of young minds.

It is true that our brains are more bendy and malleable when we’re younger, and what children are seeing and reading is undeniably important for their formation of ideas about the world. I don’t have children of my own, but from what I’ve observed in the children I interact with, I’d say what they “absorb like a sponge” from media is much less what’s good and what’s not, and much more who’s cool and who’s not. You might argue that these two things can intermingle, and you’d be right, but media literacy has a lot to do with what they absorb into their behavior. A youngster with a solid basis may think Slytherin is much cooler than Gryffindor, but they won’t start bullying people or legitimately planning world domination (this is how Slytherin was portrayed), they’ll just wear T-Shirts.

More importantly, “what’s cool and what’s not” is a much, much more crucial lesson than we’d initially think. It has to do with that is desirable. If a show makes skating look cool, a kid might well pick up a skateboard and give it a go. This isn’t myth. Guitar sales in Mexico spiked after Coco was released last year. Children begged for them for Christmas. Even a friend of mine, what you might call a grown-a** man, bought a guitar as a direct result of watching the film (and he hasn’t picked it up since).

So yes, it is very important to take special care of the “messages” included in young people’s media. More than moralistic messages, asking for the normalization (and “cool-ification”?) of more diverse people should be a priority. Even so, each parent wants the screens and the pages of books and comics to relay the same messages they are trying to teach their child. Like an extension of them.

What about us?

If we put the children discussion aside, the question it leaves me with is this: Do we want media to teach us something? My instinct would be to say yes, I do. Because I have become aware of issues and experiences far from my own through stories in media (real or fictional), I would say yes.

Fandom seems to agree that media should teach. The what, generally, I’ve covered. Whether media has a responsibility to do it has been discussed in the excellent Ethics of Storytelling series. But who does fandom want media to teach, besides children?

Even if I personally think I want media to teach me, I do find I am still closed off to accepting opinions and perspectives different than my own. As an example, when I was younger I used to have a really hard time finding drunkenness funny. Part of it is due to my own real-life experiences, but I also do hold a very old-fashioned belief that intoxication, especially in minors, should not be taken lightly. As I’ve grown older I’ve found myself more open to other people’s opinions on the matter, that come from their own experience. Having my own experiences as an adult has helped, too. But it took me a long time to accept that my perspective was not the only valid one.

The thing is, I didn’t learn that from TV, I learned it from people. It takes me back to my response to cheesy Hallmark movies. I find it pedantic when media tries to teach me something. So, despite my initial answer, I find that no, I don’t really want media to teach me things. Not in the straightforward sense of the word. I don’t want it to preach to me because I, as do many of us, already have my own standards of good and bad. So here is my conclusion:

We don’t really want media to teach us anything, we want it to teach others what we (think we) already know.

We need it to show us perspectives we hadn’t considered, so that then we might want to learn something. But learning is not an inevitability; you must be open and willing to learn.

Media Doesn’t Teach, We Learn

Ultimately, media simply isn’t a teacher.

Educating people is not and should not be media’s aim. That’s up to parenting and the education system. Narratives can’t be masterclasses on anything because they usually have a limited point of view. One single film or even a long-running TV show cannot teach you everything there is to know about LGBT+ experiences and/or rights, or the ethnic diversity within Native American peoples, or Philosophy, or anything. It can give you glimpses into these things, pique your interest, leave you hooked. But if it tries to do much more it wouldn’t be entertainment anymore.

Coco is a great example of this. The film shows you a glimpse of Mexican culture, respectfully and accurately portrayed on screen. It does include tidbits of information about the tradition of Día de Muertos, like the use of the cempazúchitl (that yellow flower), the alebrijes (colorful spirit guides), and a brief explanation of some elements of the altar. But it never goes into detail. There are many elements and details about just the altar that the film left out. Every element in an altar has a meaning, or many. The writers and producers journeyed in Mexico, learning and absorbing information to make the film as respectful as accurate as possible, knew about every element of the altar, proven by the fact that it is there in the film.

They did not need to include every explanation. Having it would make it a bit overbearing and even boring. And a boring movie with accurate information that no one sees would be about as useful to representing Mexican culture as getting drunk on bad Tequila on May 5th.

What media can do however, is prompt you to want to learn. About science, screenwriting, aerodynamics, history, and, above all, people.

Images courtesy of Disney Channel, Disney Pixar, and NBC

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“That would lead to the antiquated and simplistic Pure Darkness vs. Pure Light conflict. We might be able to consume that from retro content knowing its context, but the reality is that it doesn’t fly with modern audiences, at all.”

Lord of the Rings says hi.


Conclusion to Stumbling Beginnings in Summer Knight




It had to happen sometime. I talked last book about how much Butcher had improved on his shaky start. Published in 2002, Summer Knight brings the shaky opening to a conclusion. It also opens up a new phase of storytelling for the series as a whole. In case you couldn’t tell, I really like this book. It brings so much to the series, and features one of the more iconic moments of the series for Murphy. Let’s get into it.

Spoilers for Summer Knight and all previous books in the series.

So, What Happened?

Summer Knight opens with Harry and Billy investigating a rain of toads. Harry grumps around and alienates all his friends because of his grief over Susan. Afterwards, he goes to a meeting Billy orchestrated, which turns out to be with Mab, Queen of the Winter Fae. She bought his debt from the Leanansidhe, and wants him to clear her name for a murder. Harry refuses and goes to the White Council meeting. We meet several other wizards, and a vampire offers peace between the White Council and Red Court if they turn over Harry. At the conclusion of the meeting, the wizards agree not to sacrifice Harry if he makes Mab cooperate with the Wizards.

Harry discovers that the murdered man, Ronald Reuel, was the Summer Knight, the human intermediary for the Summer Court. The power he wielded disappeared, destroying the balance. Which, eventually, leads to war between the Courts. Elaine, shows up as the Summer Emissary. Harry attends Reuels funeral, and runs into several teenage, changeling acquaintances of the knight who are concerned over the disappearance of Lily. He visits the Winter Lady, then contacts Murphy. They fight several monsters in a Wal-Mart. He goes to the Summer Lady after finding Elaine beaten by his car.

Harry visits the Summer and Winter Mothers in the Nevernever. The Winter Mother gives him an Unraveling. Aurora, the Summer Lady steals it from him and reveals she orchestrated everything to remake the seasons in her own image. She trapped the power inside Lily. Harry objects to this. Harry, the Alphas, and two of the teenage changelings go to the Stone Table. They interrupt the fight between seasons, steal back the Unraveling, and kill Aurora, saving Lily, the one holding the mantle. In the conclusion, Lily becomes the new Summer Lady.

Best Moment – The Wal-Mart Fight, Organization to Conclusion

There are so many good things about this scene. There’s finally communication, Murphy’s first moment of awesome, and plot hooks perfectly combined with character catharsis. Over the course of this unlikely placed scene, Butcher manages to bring several elements of the early series to a conclusion.

The first, of course, is that Harry finally tells Murphy everything about the supernatural. She even gets in one last one-liner about being kept out, a start to their banter for the rest of the series. “‘I know I’ve kept things from you.’ … ‘Yeah’, she said, ‘I know. It’s annoying as hell.’”(299). He tells her everything. About the Red Court, the White Council, the Fae, and Chicago Supernatural Politics. Now, we won’t have the cheap conflict from Storm Front where they work at cross-purposes again.

Immediately afterwards, we have the fight with the chlorofiend, the Tigress, and the mind fog. At the conclusion of that fight, we also have Murphy’s first major impact since the Loup-Garou. “Murphy tore through them with the chain saw, … then drove the blade directly between the chlorofiend’s glowing green eyes.” (345). Chainsaw with cold iron, vs Fae Creature. Murphy wins.

The way that the plot interacts shows improvement from the previous book. There, Butcher attempted to tie together the antagonists with the chain spells. Here, we see the ghoul, the summoned monster, and the mind fog from two different people. The Tigress also capitalizes on Murphy’s trauma from the previous book. But everything makes sense, and the conclusion of the fight ties together various plot threads, since Ace sent the Tigress, Aurora the fog and fiend, and Murphy starts to recover from Kravos’s attack.

Most Improved – Harry’s Attitude

While some of the previous books focused more on the change to other people, here we have Harry change. He has a character arc that comes to a satisfying conclusion by the end. Harry starts the book depressed over Susan, and he alienates everyone. Billy points it out. “I don’t need to be a wizard to see when someone’s in a downward spiral. You’re hurting. You need help.” (25). Given that Billy previously espoused the theme of the series, his reintroduction here is significant. Eventually, Harry accepts the help Billy offers, both in scheduling meetings, and with the fight at the end. After the fight, Harry even goes over to hang out with the Alphas, and plays a barbarian in a Dungeons & Dragons spin-off game. He quotes William Shakespeare jokingly, and says, “Meep, Meep” to a deranged Faerie Queen. (489).

It is not only the Alphas that help change Harry’s mood. His reunion with Eileen, his teenage flame, who he thought he killed alongside Justin also helps. Finding out he didn’t kill her brings him closure. But through the book, when she nominally serves as an opponent, the Summer Emissary to his Winter, her presence reassures him. Even when she ‘betrays’ him to Aurora, and binds him, she still helps him. “I’d been right. It was the same binding she’d used when we were kids.” (433). Her meddling enables him to escape Aurora’s death trap, by using their childhood bond.

At the conclusion of the book, she gives him advice regarding Susan that builds to the catharsis detailed above. “Stop thinking about how bad you feel—because if she cares about you at all, it would tear her up to see you like I saw you a few days ago.” (510). That help sends him in a new direction.

Best Worldbuilding – The Fae Courts

While the information on the White Council is delightful, the Fae Court proves more valuable to the main plot. And we learn a lot about the Courts here. Lea makes an appearance, where she ‘helps’ Harry by distracting him and a Fae from fighting and guiding him to the Stone Table. She mentions again how she believes her actions last book only helped him as well. It gives insight to the alien nature of Fae morals.

We also can draw conclusions about the structure of the Courts given all the information on how they organize themselves. Through the book, we learn about the Winter and Summer Courts, each with three Queens. The Mothers, the retired queens. The Queens, the current ruler. And the Ladies, the heir for the future. Their Knights that do their will in the mortal world, and the Emissaries chosen on special occasions.

Also informative is the phrase, “If Winter came here, Summer had to come too, didn’t it?” (219). It implies certain checks and balances on each other’s behavior. That only highlights how serious a problem it is that the Summer Knight is dead, and the mantle gone. Lea’s information about the Stone Table reinforces that. Beyond being a reference to Narnia, it also guarantees great power to whoever holds the table, and whoever sheds blood on it. So, the peaceful transfer of the table from Summer to Winter and back with the seasons preserves their equality. Aurora’s plan only serves to show how important it is to keep that balance, less there be another Ice Age, or worse.

In showing us all this, Butcher expands his universe so much further, and sets the ‘table’ for future stories. Ones that will lead to the eventual conclusion of the series, yet to come.

Worst Worldbuilding – The Conclusion of Meryl’s Story

Given all that we know now about the Fae, it comes as no surprise that the worst worldbuilding also comes from that section of the story. Butcher’s take on Changelings is innovative, being half-human, half-Fae rather than the traditional version. The problems arise from how the narrative treats her, and the results of her half-Fae heritage.

The problem with Meryl is that Meryl dies at the end of the story. She is the first person explicitly allied with Harry to die. The only previous person that was not an antagonist that died was MacFinn, and he attempted to murder them all because of an uncontrollable curse. Meryl dying in and of itself is not the entire problem. Butcher directs the series in a darker direction, so deaths will come eventually. The issue that I have with the conclusion of Meryl’s story is that Butcher could have done so many things with her. As a Changeling aligned with Winter, dearest friend of the new Summer Lady and Knight, the possibility of an inter-Fae alliance or Court would develop.

She even said, “[Winter] Calls,’ Meryl said. ‘ But I’m not answering.’” (459). The Changelings provide a glimpse of the Fae outside of the manipulation, outside of Court politics. Meryl could have been symbolic of that. But no. Meryl Chooses to save Lily. She Chooses and she dies and all that hope with her. It’s a story brought too soon to a conclusion, one that broke off threads that could have continued.

Moment of Regression – Ye Old Wandering Eyes

I will admit, this is a sticking point for me. I talked about my dislike of Harry’s voyeurism in Storm Front. I brought it up again in Fool Moon. Thankfully, it didn’t appear too often in the following books, but here we see this again with a vengeance. And it doesn’t even make sense in character this time.

After a Susan-vampire nightmare, Harry thinks.

“But I had been used to a certain amount of friendly tension relieving with Susan. Her absence had killed that for me, completely—except for rare moments during the damned dreams when my hormones came raging back up to the front of my thoughts again as though making up for lost time.” (176).

So, theoretically at least Harry’s libido takes a break. I understand that part of this nightmare and Harry’s symptoms comes from the dangerous way he’s punishing himself for Susan’s condition. But, still. Even before this dream we have moments where he stares at Mab’s ass. He knows she’s the Winter Queen, and he still ogles her when she leaves. At Maeve’s court, Butcher spends a good deal of time describing Jenny Greenteeth, a Fae seductress. He could have emphasized the alien way she moves, the details that make her decidedly not human, and dropped a one-liner about her being naked at the end. It would have been in character for Harry’s blasé kind of humor. Instead, Butcher flips that script, focusing on the nakedness, with the inhumanity coming as an aside.

Call it my own personal soapbox, if you will, but that doesn’t sit well with me, especially when the last book did so much better with Harry’s gaze. (Not perfect, of course, but better. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just needs to keep improving.)

In Conclusion

Overall, Summer Knight showcases the best of Butcher’s work so far. While the choices were somewhat limited compared to last book, the plot hangs together much better. That cohesive plot lent its voice to each category, and the worst moments were nitpicks and could-have-beens.

The way that Butcher brought this story arc, and Harry’s character arc to a conclusion proved satisfying. His mastery of plot improved, with the motivations of the antagonists and the number being reasonable, instead of overwhelming. The knowledge about the Fae, about the Council, and about Elaine all help set up this next phase of the series. I’m looking forward to the next book.

Am I being too nit-picky in the ‘bad’ categories, or is it just proof of concept that the problems can be reduced to nitpicks? Was the White Council more fascinating than the Fae, or was Harry’s arc disjointed? Let me know if I’m being too harsh on the series, if you had a different idea for a category, or if you have any comments about the arc of the series as a whole. I look forward to hearing from you.


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Game of Thrones 3×10 Rewatch: Mediocre





We’ve done it! We’ve made it through three seasons of Game of Thrones here with our rewatch project The Wars to Come. And with that, we’ve also made it through the most bearable parts of this series by showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D). While last week brought some mixed reviews, it seems that this week, Kylie, Julia, and Katie are leaning more towards jeers and boos in “Myhsa.”

Episode Recap

Picking up from last week’s morbid end, it’s a slaughter outside the Twins as the Frey troops finish off Robb’s forces. Arya, escaping with Sandor, oversees her brother’s body being paraded about—now with Grey Wind’s head on his shoulders. The next morning, Walder Frey chats with Roose Bolton about their improved stations, now that Roose has become the Warden of the North. Roose reveals that his bastard Ramsay was the one who got the Ironborn to surrender Winterfell, and the one keeping Theon hostage now. Arya and the Hound, meanwhile, pass a group of Frey soldiers who brag about aiding in sewing Grey Wind’s head onto Robb’s body. Arya slips off Sandor’s horse and kills one of them, with Sandor killing the other two to protect her.

We check in with Theon and Ramsay, the latter of whom is still torturing the former. Theon asks to be killed, but Ramsay points out he’s not useful to him that way. He decides that Theon’s new name is ‘Reek’.

At some point, Ramsay had sent a box containing Theon’s castrated penis to the Iron Islands, with a letter telling the Ironborn to withdraw from the North. Balon and Yara receive it, and though Balon seems completely indifferent to Theon’s suffering, Yara decides that she will take her best fighters and rescue her brother.

Despite the massacre at The Twins, things seem rather peaceful in King’s Landing for a moment as Sansa jokes around with Tyrion about ways they can prank those who speak poorly of him. However, that is soon dashed when he attends a Small Council meeting where it’s revealed what happened to the Stark forces. Joffrey is gleeful and says he wants to show the corpse of Robb to Sansa, but Tyrion tells him he can’t torment her any more. This leads to an unpleasant confrontation, which Tywin puts an end to by sending Joffrey to bed. As everyone else clears out, he reminds Tyrion that he must impregnate Sansa now that she’s officially the heir to Winterfell. That might prove difficult, since when Tyrion sees her next, it’s clear she heard about her family and is incredibly sad.

Later, Varys tries to bribe Shae to leave Westeros, since he believes Tyrion can help the land and Shae is a distraction to that end. She refuses. Tyrion, for his own part, passes his time by drinking with Pod, until Cersei comes in and tells him that he really should impregnate Sansa, so that she can have some joy in her life, just like Cersei’s children brought her. Much later, Jaime arrives back in the city, and meets a stunned Cersei.

Up at The Wall, Bran and the Reeds take shelter in one of the abandoned Night’s Watch castles. Bran tells them it’s haunted because of the ‘rat cook,’ a man who killed his guests under his own roof and was cursed into the form of a rat. Gilly and Sam turn up at the same castle, and Sam recognizes Bran as Jon’s brother. He gives Bran and the Reeds his dragonglass to help protect them as they set out north of the Wall.

Sam and Gilly make their way back to Castle Black, where Sam makes the case to Maester Aemon that Gilly is worthy of their protection given their vows extend to the “realms of men.” Gilly names her baby after Sam, and Aemon, after learning what they had seen, commands Sam to send out all the ravens with this news.

They’re not the only ones to make it back to Castle Black; Ygritte finds Jon washing his wounds. He tells her he loves her, but he has to go home, and says he knows she won’t hurt him. That bit turns out to be wrong since she shoots him with arrows three times, though Jon still manages to ride back to the castle where he is greeted by Sam and Pyp.

Down at Dragonstone, Davos struggles with Gendry as a prisoner. The two talk, and Davos reveals that he too was lowborn and from Flea Bottom. Later, Davos reads through Stannis’s mail having made great strides in his literacy. He comes across Maester Aemon’s letter and is shocked. However, the news arrives that Robb has died, which means Stannis wants to sacrifice Gendry, since they now have a sign that the leech magic worked. Davos tries to argue against it, but it’s hopeless.

Davos instead breaks Gendry out and sneaks him into a rowboat, giving him guidance on how to get back to King’s Landing. When it’s discovered that Gendry is missing, Davos is correctly accused by Stannis and Melisandre. He’s sentenced to die, but Davos quickly pulls out Aemon’s letter and tells Stannis the real fight is to the north. Melisandre agrees with him, and tells Stannis that Davos has a part to play still.

Finally, in Yunkai, the now freed slaves come outside their gates to meet Danaerys. Her Unsullied guards are wary, but when the freedmen begin calling out “Mhysa” to her (meaning “Mother”), she realizes that no one will hurt her. She leaves the protection of her Unsullied to walk among the Yunkish.

Initial, quick reaction

Kylie: I’m really not able to type well, because I am still cringing from the crowd surfing scene. And especially knowing the script fully intended for Dany’s whiteness to be the focal point…ugh.

Trying to think about this episode as a whole, there was so much that just straight up annoyed me, but then the numerous Davos and Bran scenes somehow were well-placed enough that I’d calm down. It’s not that they were even that amazingly done (seriously, how would any show-only like Stannis at this point?), but the rest was just…very clearly not the show we began with in Season 1.

Katie: I was happy to get to jump on this rewatch because I always am interested in tenth episodes of Game of Thrones’s seasons. The big climax has just occurred and then there’s so much wrapping up and scene-setting to establish what comes next. They’re so often good barometers of how the show is doing. This one was a roller coaster for me. It reminded me of a lot of the things I genuinely enjoyed about the earlier seasons of the show, but then Sansa would be sidelined, Ramsey would monologue, or oof, that whole last scene.

Julia: All of this episode was mostly a need to set things up for the coming seasons. Sometimes this makes perfect sense, like setting up Stannis going north, but sometimes I was just scratching my head going, “Why are they digging this whole even deeper?”

Okay, that was mostly the scene where Shae rejected those diamonds. Like, did they have a different plan for her at that point? Why?


Kylie: I actually think my highlight was Walder and Roose talking, since you can clearly see just how odious they are, and also how that chip on Walder’s shoulder came to define a war. Roose was a bit hypocritical with his, “Robb didn’t listen to me ever” and also, “here’s how the situation with my bastard unfolded that Robb sanctioned,” but that’s not exactly an issue since we’re not meant to be convinced by these two. At least I don’t think so.

My lowlight is a very personal annoyance, I know, but Sansa laughing and joking with Tyrion and not knowing the word “shit” was pure sheep shit in and of itself. Also how many times did Arya possibly stick poo in the mattress that Sansa was no doubt sharing with like, Jeyne Poole?

It’s just, come on. I get that the sun rises and sets out of Tyrion’s ass on this show, but can’t his prisoner wife at least be a bit distant to him? You know, her whole thing in the books with her armor of courtesy. The way the show makes it seem, she was well on her way to liking this marriage, and then the death of her family made her sad for a few days (during which will be her escape, since that’s coming in two episodes). So frustrated.

Katie: That’s a good highlight, it’s always nice to see David Bradley cackle his way through his lines. And you know, I actually really considered Sansa laughing and joking with Tyrion as a lowlight too? Not because the scene itself is particularly bad (I’d forgotten how nice it is to see Sansa look happy about something, anything!). But because her emotions in all her scenes this episode are 110% about Tyrion. First to make him look like a great guy, which is par for the course. But it gets even worse later when it turns out that Sansa heard the news of the Red Wedding off screen, and her sadness is not her own, instead is simply given the narrative function of bumming out Tyrion a bit more. It’s a good pick for highlighting all of the generally… bad writings tendencies of the later seasons.

That said, I have to pick the closing Mhysa scene. It’s probably the point when I turned hardest on this show when I originally watched it? It’s such a thematic, narrative, and directorial failure, bad for the story and gross in all its racial implications. There were a lot of bad scenes in this episode, but this was the one that made me most actively angry.

Kylie: Yeah, it’s completely tasteless and the last taste you get of the show for the season. It may actually have been the worst closing shot of any season, now that I think about it.

Katie: My highlight is probably the Small Council scene, before it’s whittled down to Tyrion and Tywin? I’ve always liked the dynamic of more competent people having to deal with Joffrey’s kingship and deciding whether to be deferential or confrontational. It’s also a scene that’s not overly talky, and lets the (good) acting speak for itself. Honestly, though, I probably just enjoy seeing Charles Dance belittle Jack Gleeson. Honorable mention to Davos and Shireen hanging out and reading together, because it was very sweet.

Julia: Jack Gleeson is such an easy highlight to pick. He was just so happy and bouncy. And it helped that it was more or less just a book scene acted excellently. But I’m going to take your honorable mention and turn it into my highlight. Remember when Davos actually did stuff? Remember Shireen’s School for Conveniently Placed Illiterates? I used to love both these characters so much, and they have such great chemistry together. So even though this scene triggered a spiral where I was thinking what the Westerosi equivalent of Dutch speaking printers that would result in there being a “g” in “night” would be, or if they even have standardized orthography in Westeros, and what a trick that would be without printing, and if the maesters as an institution would be enough of a centralizing force to have standard orthography make sense…. I still really liked it.

I honestly think the “pork sausage” scene is not only a lowlight of the episode, it might be a lowlight for the whole series, even given all the stuff they’re going to do later. It was just so long and so… Am I going insane, or did they play it for laughs? Maybe they were going for some kind of Deadpool-esque black humor, but whatever Ramsay dangling a sausage was supposed to be, it wasn’t funny.

Katie: It’s so bad! I think they are playing it for laughs, at least kind of? Ramsay’s whole shtick seems to be “he’s so evil and so wacky! Isn’t it crazy?!” The cavernous abyss between the obvious delight D&D have in writing Ramsay and the terrible way it plays out on the screen and drags down the story is a… not great sign of things to come.

Kylie: Also speaking of what’s to come, Ramsay and eating becomes like, a thing, sort of similar to Brad Pitt’s character in Ocean’s 11. I guess it’s because they found this sausage scene suitably off-putting or something? But it leads to a full-on dramatic moment of Roose telling him to stop eating in Season 5.

Quality of writing

Katie: It is the lowest of low-hanging fruit, but can we talk about the Ramsay-Theon scene for a sec? The first shot of Theon in this episode is just a lingering shot on his crotch. We have an endless Ramsey monologue as he eats a pork sausage (get it?), and then Theon gets punched in the face a lot and cries. This show, guys. “Do eunuchs have a phantom cock?”

Julia: Yeah, the dialogue is cringy, but in terms of writing, the bigger question is why this scene, or this plotline even exists. GRRM puts a lot of disturbing stuff on the page (far too much according to many people) and even he chose to leave most of this stuff as implication. Perhaps they should have asked themselves why that was.

Kylie: I guess just so we could see the “transformation” into Reek more clearly? Like, they wanted him to be called ‘Reek’, but didn’t think that would track. Why they left the nickname in is beyond me, since they cut out Ramsay posing as Reek, and all that rather confusing backstory that came with it.

Even if they felt like we couldn’t have understood how broken Theon was without showing at least some torture, we certainly could have gotten by with half as many scenes, and none needed to be quite so explicit or drawn out. This one in particular was endless.

While we’re talking about the sausage though, I actually liked the dialogue given to Balon when he reacts to all of this. It was very on-point for the Iron Islands attitudes.

Katie: It was also undercut a bit by the fact that it makes the adoption of Reek seem kind of arbitrary rather than an eventual outcome of Theon’s torture. Theon’s obviously not in a great place at the start of this scene, but there’s not much of an indication that he’s really lost his sense of self. He seems eager to hold onto his name when he first gets hit in the face. Because of that, the fact that he takes up the name at the end seems less like a culmination of a character arc than an admission that he’ll do what Ramsey says if he gets punched sufficiently.

Agreed about the Balon dialogue. I also didn’t mind Cersei’s mom monologue (momologue! oh, gross, I’m sorry).

Julia: Like Walder Frey’s obnoxious misogyny last week, Balon’s horribleness felt like it was actual there to serve the world and the characters. I’m not sure why Ramsay’s antics feel so different, especially from Frey’s stuff. Maybe it’s just the absurdity of the sausage wagging.

Kylie: They just feel very out of place. The dialogue doesn’t sound like anything that’d be in ASOIAF, and I don’t just mean because of some strange anachronisms, like talking about “phantom limbs.” No way Westerosi would have coined that term.

Our 8th grade book report (on themes)

Katie: Tough to pick a theme in an episode that had roughly 36,000 plot lines happening at the same time. The closest I could come to was the emphasis on tension between valuing the Family Name and valuing family members themselves. The clearest example is Tywin’s long speech to Tyrion about how he wanted to kill him as a baby but HE WAS A LANNISTER so he kept him around, but it’s also evident in Balon’s indifference to Theon once he’s a family liability (and Yara’s pushback). I suppose it works with Stannis and Gendry as well, with Davos playing the Yara figure. If we want to be kind and stretch this theme to its breaking point, we could also include the Davos/Gendry scene about Flea Bottom, and the Shae/Varys scene, both of which demonstrate how those without a family name often have to play by different rules. That still leaves out most of the episode?

Julia: That’s an excellent effort. There’s something there maybe about obligations. Like, Jon has one to the Night’s Watch, and Tywin had an obligation to not kill his own child, (the cross he bears is heavy) and Guest Right is an obligation, but that just seems like a less insightful version of what Katie said.

Title? Dany is a mother to all the freedmen, and motherhood is also what Carol’s content is about. And the Rat Cook is a parent too…it’s totes a theme.

Kylie: Gilly is a mother to the baby she just named Sam! Honestly, the title is feeling pretty peripheral to me.

Katie gets full marks though, for sure. The three Stark kids kinda have a mutual loss of innocence (not than any of them are fully innocent at this point, of course). Sansa learns about her family’s fate, Arya kills her first man, and Bran heads north of The Wall. That one is kinda weaker, but given this is a season that ends in the middle of a book, it’s more of a parallel with them than I’d have expected.

The Butterfly Effect (cracks in the plaster)

Kylie: I don’t want to keep harping on the Sansa/Tyrion scene, but I think this is one of the clearest butterfly effects at play. Tyrion is made a really, really, really nice guy who the audience loves, so any character we are meant to like must love him too. In this case, Sansa. So take the whitewashing of his character that’s been there from the start, and two seasons later his prisoner child-bride is joking around with him, and Varys tries to set Shae up for life across the Narrow Sea, because Tyrion is apparently the only man who can save Westeros and he needs to be less distracted.

Katie: Agreed. I was shocked at how openly Sansa was used as an emotional prop in this episode.

Julia: Ugh, I feel like I can rant about Saint Tyrion for hours. In fact, I’m quite sure I have. I would argue that the changes to Tyrion’s character have the most butterfly effect of any decision in the show, maybe more than the decision to age up the kids, or the one to take out most of the supernatural elements. Tyrion’s characters flaws in the book drive the plot quite a bit, after all. And make his actions make any kind of sense.

At this point, I think many intelligent show-only watchers would be surprised to learn that Sansa is a POV character in her own right. And that Shae isn’t.

Katie: Also, this is a very small detail, and nit-picky, but I think it illustrated well the problems the show increasingly ran into down the line. I am not at all a fan of the choice to open the episode with… the mass slaughter of Northern extras. It’s supposed to serve as a carry-over from the climax of last episode, I suppose. But the reason The Red Wedding works as an emotional gut-punch is because it’s so intimate. It’s a shockingly and terribly personal moment.

As y’all noted last week, it’s a climax the show keeps trying to recapture, and it keeps trying… badly. In large part because it keeps aiming for grand scale over the emotional horror of individual moments. Michelle Fairley did such a good job of selling those last few seconds of emotion in The Red Wedding. Opening this episode with anonymous extras screaming and dying is literal overkill: it takes what should be the center of the scene—Arya seeing Wolf-Headed-Robb—and confuses and muddles it. Rather than a clear, stark (sorry), emotional moment, we get a frenetic, busy, overly-complicated scene. Clean it up! Bombast isn’t always best. It’s not a big deal, really, but it’s a wasted opportunity, and so indicative of what the show is going to prioritize as it goes along.

Julia: At least it gives the aforementioned hypothetical intelligent show-only watcher the tools to call bull on Tywin’s later line about all he did was kill a few dozen men at dinner, and what’s so wrong about that?

Kylie: True, though I’ll agree it was very visually busy. There’s that shot of Roose that opens it, and the way he walked to look out reminds me exactly of this one shot in Return of the King with an orc charging into battle. It was a wonky way to open things (also it was pretty damn dark), and given the effectiveness of the Walder and Roose scene later, I don’t think it’s a very necessary one.

Worth noting something that’s about to turn into a butterfly effect: the Night’s Watch vows. Sam found the “loophole” to make a case for Gilly staying (a compelling one at that). Next season we get the sex loophole, and I feel like we had one more at that too. Maybe the implicit loophole that allowed Jon to quit? It’s also symptomatic of D&D chasing a good thing, or something that lands. This is still pre-chicken joke GoT, remember.

Remember adaptation?

Julia: Well, this section is getting harder and harder.

Um. Gendry fits rather seamlessly into Edric Storm’s role in this episode. Minus the way he bonded with Davos, I guess. They bonded in both cases, but not in the same way.

The small council scene about the Red Wedding was pretty good, at least until it became about how awesome Tyrion is for not raping a 14-year-old, but other than that the stuff from KL was not super faithful.

Kylie: Not at all. Though let’s chat about the adaptational decision with Yara. Is it that D&D just don’t plan more than one year at a time? Because I don’t think it’s about them feeling like we needed to check in with her and trying to come up with a great Season 4 plot for her specifically; we didn’t check in on the Iron Islands at all this year, and there’s nothing that necessitates putting the theater in next year either.

Even if they did plan, does that mean they purposely set up Yara for a completely futile, one-off failed mission? Because god knows they wanted Theon to be in his ADWD plotline, no matter what woman gets shoved into Jeyne’s role… I guess I’m just not getting what they were even trying for with this. False hope of Theon’s rescue?

Katie: Such big chunks of these finales focus on laying the groundwork for future plots. But in practice I think that sometimes bleeds over into just… setting up potential drama or tension? It wouldn’t surprise me if they just wanted another rousing (“rousing”) speech or set up for potential action next year, regardless of whether it would matter at all in the long run. The more generous part of me wants to say that there was some level of awareness that the Theon/Ramsey scenes were floundering and needed the (false) promise of some kind of narrative development before the end of the season.

Julia: In retrospect, though, it does seem cruel of them to set Yara up like that. As cruel as setting Shae up like that was. I think being even more generous is presuming that they had different plans for both these characters—they wanted Shae in particular to do something different during the trial and for Yara to maybe do something like her book plot with Stannis maybe–but audience reaction, or budget, or lack of writing skills made it impossible?

Carol Watch: who is Cersei this week?

Kylie: This is the most Carol Carol who Carol’d all the way to Carolville in her Carolmobile.

Katie: She reminded me of a mom who has been to so many grinding, exhausting parent-teacher conferences about her terrible kid. She knows the teacher is right, but she has to keep her game-face on? She’s just trying her best.

Julia: Imagine another hypothetical intelligent person, who only ever sees this episode of GoT, being told that Carol is supposed to be the villain.

Also, what on earth was that sleeveless number she was wearing in the last scene? And why was she looking at a seashell of some kind and smiling sadly?

Kylie: She was smiling sadly at seashells. She and Jaime used to sell seashells down by the seashore, or something. I feel like I remember that context being explained to us (was that something they talked about in the pilot?) but damn if I remember.

Julia: They talked about jumping off a cliff once.

Why was her scene with Tyrion even there? Like I say, it’s an odd thing to do with someone who’s supposed to be a villain. Was it all just so Tyrion can seem like a nice guy for not wanting to impregnate Sansa?

Kylie: Or to make it clear that once Cersei’s kids are gone, there goes the only good piece of her. Yay! Either way, there’s no debate this week:

Exposition Imposition: good or clunky?

Kylie: Tywin’s exposition seemed good, albeit horrifying. I guess Bran is technically expositing with the rat cook, too, though that’s really just telling a fairy tale. I don’t know, the things that jumped out to me as clunky in this episode were not exposition in nature.

Julia: What, talking about phantom cocks was not exposition? Maybe Ramsay should have asked a cock merchant, I’m sure they would know all about that.

Feel free to be annoyed at me, but the way Tywin said, “I raised you as my son, because you are a Lannister,” to Tyrion probably gave a lot of fuel to the Tyrion the Secret Targ folks.

Kylie: That was also following him saying “since I cannot prove you’re not my son” in another episode this season too, I think. Maybe Charles Dance is a Tyrion truther.

How was the pacing?

Julia: D&D seem to have more trouble with pacing within scenes even than the pacing of episodes.

Kylie: I’d agree with that. The entire episode stops dead at the sausage waving, and frankly Davos and Gendry’s conversation didn’t exactly get to a point.

Overall the episode just struggled from that spottiness we’ve been seeing all season. I can’t tell if it’s better or worse that they were trying to give so many characters a stopping point. Often jumping around helps break things up, but it sure didn’t feel like that this time.

Another week of no sex, baby

Katie: You know, given the number of scenes where people tell Tyrion to have sex with Sansa, maybe “no sex, (no) baby” is the theme.

Kylie: And now his watch begins, after all. He hasn’t seemed to be getting it with Shae either, now that I think about it. I guess she’s struggling with her maybe!jealousy still over Sansa?

Julia: No, no Kylie, she’s outraged that people would dare treat Sansa this way, since she loves that girl so much and would kill for her.

Kylie: Until she decides that whatever, let’s just implicate Sansa in a bunch of crimes. I can’t believe we have another season of Shae…

In memoriam…those Frey soldiers

Katie: In memoriam of the last time Arya’s character arc was interesting! Sorry.

Kylie: Ain’t it the truth. We’re about to get a full season of her and Sandor doing nothing, and talking about how nothing is nothing, and frankly that’s a highlight compared to Braavos and her arc quite literally iterating. Though…Arya in Season 7 was not boring. Many other things, but that’s one charge she gets away from.

Is this where we should talk about her kills in the book getting thrown in at random times and in random contexts?

Julia: I remember there being a chart.

This season’s been fun. I think I get people still having patience with this show after this, but in retrospect, it’s so totally off the rails already.

And I just remembered, the Pornish are coming soon!

Kylie: OH MY GOD.

Well, for us at least, the Pornish won’t be coming until 2019. We will have the Season 3 rewatch podcast out to you in the next couple of weeks, and then Season 4’s rewatch will start January 8th.

Thank you all for following along this season. We’re curious to know what you thought of this episode specifically, though. Did D&D leave a tantalizing endpoint, or are things just sloppy to the point of distraction? Let’s discuss that below, and we wish you both a happy new year and good fortune in The Wars to Come.

Images courtesy of HBO

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Game of Thrones 3×09 Rewatch: Reaction Vids of Castamere





We hope you’re recording your reaction as you read this week’s The Wars to Come, because our Game of Thrones rewatch has finally reached the episode showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D) created the series for: “The Rains of Castamere.” Last week, the two gave us a surprisingly decent (albeit frustrating) episode, while this week, Kylie, Julia, Musa, and Dan are here to analyze their magnum opus.

Episode Recap

We’re taken briefly beyond The Wall, where Sam and Gilly reach the northern side of it. Sam tells her that they’ll travel back through it, while explaining to her some history of The Wall. When Sam reveals he knows all this information from reading, Gilly calls him a “wizard.”

Just a bit south of that, Bran & company take refuge in a mill. This is very coincidentally near Jon and his own company of wildlings, who see an old man breeding horses. The wildlings move to kill the man, but Jon makes noise, alerting him and allowing him to run off. Unfortunately, the man only makes it as far as the same mill Bran is at before he’s caught. A thunderstorm comes, and Hodor begins shouting “Hodor” in fear. With all the wildlings below, Bran fears they’ll be noticed, and miraculously skinchanges into Hodor in an effort to quiet him. Jojen encourages Bran to then warg into Summer, below.

It’s a good thing Bran listens, since on the ground, Orell tells Jon he has to kill the old man himself to prove his loyalty to the wildlings. Jon can’t so Ygritte does, causing Tormund to order the wildlings to kill him, since it’s clear he’s not on their side. However, Bran comes to his defense through Summer, who creates an opening for him to escape (though not before taking out Orell). Ygritte is held back by Tormund, who tells her that she shouldn’t die for him.

After the incident, Bran realizes that he must go to the far North with the Reeds to figure out his magical destiny. Osha and Rickon agree to go to the Umbers at Last Hearth, while the rest of the company continues towards The Wall.

Over in Yunkai, Daario proposes a plan to take the city by having him and Dany’s two best men sneak in through the back streets, to let the full army through the front. Jorah is suspicious, but Grey Worm says he trusts Daario. They enact the plan, and though they have to fight through many soldiers, they eventually emerge victorious. The slave army of Yunkai threw down their weapons and surrendered once Dany’s army appeared. Dany seems to take a particular interest in Daario’s survival, to the chagrin of Jorah.

Finally, in the riverlands, it’s time for Edmure’s wedding. En route, Robb fills Cat in on his plan to take Casterly Rock, which she supports. Arya and the Hound are also en route, and the Hound finds a man with a cart of meat intended for the wedding. He knocks him out to steal his cart, and plans on killing the man, which Arya does not support. She convinces Sandor just to leave him knocked out. Sandor realizes that Arya is having a lot of anxiety about reaching the Twins and feels like she’ll never actually get there.

At the Twins proper, Walder Frey gives Robb bread and salt, though makes Robb apologize to the women of House Frey. Robb does so, and Walder goes on to make inappropriate comments about Talisa, too. However, all seems forgiven at the wedding, when Edmure is presented with Roslin Frey, who is very attractive. The feast afterwards seems upbeat, with Edmure and Roslin partaking in the bedding ceremony, but the mood quickly changes when the wedding band begins to play “Rains of Castamere.” Walder Frey announces that he hasn’t yet shown Robb the “hospitality [he] deserves,” and suddenly, the Freys in attendance begin massacring everyone from the North, starting with Talisa.

This massacre is outside too, with all of Robb’s troops, which is witnessed by Arya. She watches with horror as Freys kill Grey Wind, though Sandor prevents her from trying to run in. It’s for the best; Robb is shot many times. Catelyn, in desperation, holds a knife to Walder’s wife and says that she’ll forget everything if he just let Robb go. Walder, however, is indifferent, and Roose Bolton finishes Robb off with a knife to the heart. Cat slits the Frey wife’s throat, before being killed herself.

It’s a lot to discuss, so let’s dive in and break it down.

Initial, quick reaction

Julia: I’m kind of shocked at how few emotions I felt watching all these characters die. Maybe it’s my extreme cynicism, because I can see most aspects of the whole sequence were reasonably well done, yet I felt nothing. The Yunkai stuff was devoid of any emotional content, like, unless I was supposed to be worried about Daario dying, and the Bran stuff made me angry for entirely Doylist reasons.

So just, yeah. I’m dead inside.

Kylie: I, too, was pretty numb during this. I think what honestly turned me off the most was the over-the-top blatant ways D&D worked to ~make it hurt~ for us. Sure, tell us more about lil’ Ned learning to ride horses, and really talk up that Casterly Rock plan. I can’t find many flaws with how it was done either, though it is fun to realize that Edmure and Blackfish are about to disappear for three years, and Arya and Sandor are about to leave the scene to head an entire season of nothing. Where the hell was the tree Bryndon pissed on? Dorne?

Musa: The reputation this episode has definitely preceded it for me, even the first time I saw it. I remember vividly having made popcorn for the big moment in this episode because I’d already read the books and knew what was coming. At the time, aside from the really tasteless stuff done with Talisa in this episode with the manner of her death, I was actually really pleased with how it turned out. But looking back, there’s definitely issues with it that I see now that I didn’t see then.

Dan: *Kicks in the door, enters with a boombox on my shoulder blasting “The Rains of Castamere”* Wassup my dudes? Who’s got two thumbs and didn’t sell out his entire kingdom for some rando from Essos? Tywin Lannister, that’s who. This is very much the “original sin” episode for the show, the big shock that they spent the next 4 years trying to top. This was probably the best episode to be a reader for, as we got to revel in the pain of the Unsullied. Yeah, there’s a lot of tasteless stuff but beyond Talisa, it wasn’t too far from the tasteless stuff that Martin already wrote. It’s best to just sit back and enjoy the fireworks, cause it’s all downhill from here.


Kylie: I’m trying to think what a highlight would even be. Probably Roose Bolton’s eyes. That man is expressive. I guess scene-wise, the only one I legitimately enjoyed was Sam and Gilly’s, because it was cute.

I think my lowlight was how they tried to play up the Dany/Jorah/Daario love triangle. I don’t know what it is about the rewatch and feeling like there’s nothing between these characters (probably just that I’m far enough removed from my reading of the books that I’m no longer conflating), but this was a case where I especially felt nothing. Glad the camera captured Jorah’s face falling for a full 10 seconds. Griffin even asked me why Jorah was sad since he knew Daario would survive (I told him about the recast), completely missing that it was over ~love~ feelings.

Musa: I have a small issue with just how expressive Roose Bolton seems to be. He’s supposed to be the exact opposite. He’s supposed to be scary because he has NO emotions ever and doesn’t express anything that doesn’t seem like contempt for those around him. My personal highlight though would be Catelyn during the entire Red Wedding sequence. She nailed the dread and horror and anguish that’s supposed to be there for Cat during this sequence of events. If only her character hadn’t been so badly neutered before this point. My lowlight would be the fact that the shock twist itself comes right out of nowhere. That sounds like a weird copout, but I have an explanation that I’ll get into in the adaptation section.

Julia: As I said above, the Bran and Rickon stuff just made me angry. Not because it was badly done, but because it was well done and it moved me and just made me so pissed knowing that in season 6 they’re going to have the Umbers betray Osha and Rickon with seemingly no angst and then kill them both in a totally perfunctory fashion. Choosing this as a lowlight may be against the spirit of a rewatch, but I’m so angry about it I don’t give a hoot.

My highlight is David Bradley’s performance as Walder Frey. Man is that character the most despicable example of both the patriarchy and the feudal order in Westeros and gosh golly does Bradley just lean into it in the most delightful way. I could watch him creep on Talisa and forget his granddaughter’s name all day long.

Shoutout to the literal bread and salt. Never not funny.

Musa: Is the literal bread and salt actually not how the extension of guest-right is supposed to work?

Julia: I…can’t tell if that’s a serious question… This show has totally broken my irony-meter.

Kylie: I always interpreted it as not actually being a hunk of bread and a bowl of salt, but rather, food and drink offered by the host. I guess bread and salt might be the traditional choice? It’s the Manischewitz of seder wine. Some cheese would have helped even the whole thing out.

Dan: I know it’s a little morbid, but my highlight was the very beginning of the Red Wedding. Specifically, when the doors close with a clunk that echoes through the halls. The music kicks in, somber and quiet, as Cat slowly looks at Walder in the soft glow of the torches and candles. The atmosphere of it all still gives me chills, especially knowing what’s to come.

Lowlight is the “Little Eddard” scene. It’s just such a cheap ploy to make you feel for Robb and Talisa, the latter of whom we BARELY know but they have to make us care because they chose to kill her rather than let her live like Jeyne Westerling. And, of course, to get make the literal knife in the gut feel that much worse.

Quality of writing

Julia: There are a lot of book scenes in and around the Red Wedding that are kept pretty intact, notably much of Walder Frey’s dialogue, which I think was the best choice they ever made. Maybe it’s just because I know the text so damn well, but the stuff that wasn’t book content, like Talisa and Robb, and Cat and Bolton’s conversations around the bedding ceremony, really stuck out to me. Not necessarily as worse, but as quite different in, like, tone.

Kylie: Ned forbade the bedding ceremony! Talisa talking about a baby Eddard was just like, that quintessential D&D “oooh let’s make it hurt!” Actually, ditto for Robb’s scene with Cat when he tells her about the Casterly Rock plan. Let’s just give them that last glimmer of hope.

All in all I think the writing quality this episode was actually pretty fine. Nothing is jumping out to me at being badly done, even if the staging of the mill scene felt a little bit off to me. This is the episode of season 3 that’s followed the books the most closely, probably just by the nature of what set-pieces were occurring. I am surprised the dialogue was as intact as it was, since D&D’s creative liberties only increase each year. But it was a mostly pleasant surprise, even if I was numb through most of the viewing.

Dan: Outside of the cheap pathos sprinkled in here and there, I think the writing is pretty damn good. Even the changes in the story necessitated by Talisa slotted in pretty well, and I actually think Walder’s reactions to her were better than his stuff in the book. We’re at that point where the non-book stuff can still slot in pretty well without big gaps showing. I’m gonna miss that.

Musa: So it was my brother who pointed this out to me a while back, and I don’t know whether this is to do with the writing or just the direction and cinematography, but when Catelyn slaps Roose Bolton, he runs out of frame and seems to be running around the table. Then when he comes back in to stab Robb, he rushes back into the frame very suddenly to do so. I don’t know why but since he pointed that out to me, I cannot help but laugh at the way Roose seemingly ran all the way around the room while the massacre was going on before coming back in to deliver his one liner and stab Robb.

Julia: He was supervising!

Kylie: He also really wanted to make sure he gave the Lannister’s regards, I guess.

As I side note, I really cringe at how that bit of writing turned out. In the books, Jaime just kind of sarcastically tells Roose to give Robb his regards. Roose then passes the message on before stabbing him, and it’s not meant to be super connected. It’s a nice way of saying, “yeah, we struck a deal with Tywin,” but with or without the regards, Robb is getting stabbed.

In the show, it’s twisted into the generalized, “Send my family’s regards,” even though Jaime has no clue what’s about to happen. Then Roose has to apparate and disapparate to stab Robb, and tell him “the Lannisters send their regards” with a lot of anger in his voice. Then, in Season 6, the “words of the alliance” between the Freys and the Lannisters are, “The Freys and the Lannisters send their regards,” as if everyone was three inches from Roose when he said it, and thought it was some great zinger.

D&D have a pattern of fundamentally not understanding aSoIaF’s most iconic lines, and this is a great example where their own confusion over its importance (and function) made for just some bizarre set-up.

Our 8th grade book report (on themes)

Kylie: The best I can do is something cautionary about love. Daario taking Yunkai for Dany nearly got himself killed (based on the blood stains), Robb’s love for Talisa got everyone in the North killed, and Ygritte also was nearly willing to lose her life for love. Why is that the message of the episode? Who knows!

Julia: I think it’s going to be pretty impossible to tie the three threads—Dany at Yunkai, Arya and Sandor travelling, and the Red Wedding—together in any coherent way.

I guess I’ll try. All three think they’re approaching the solution to a problem, but actually the problems are only just beginning. Dany is getting herself truly tied up into the knot in Slaver’s Bay, Arya thinks she’s about to reunite with her family but at the end of the episode she’s further from them than ever, what was supposed to revive the fortunes of House Stark leads them to the total nadir of them?

Dan: I think I may have used this in the past, but it’s definitely something Martin uses a lot, and that’s the idea of honor. The successful people in this episode (Tywin/Dany/Bran) accomplish their goal thanks to being pragmatic and probably a little evil. Yes, I’m counting warging into Hodor. The people who come out dead or at least worse off (Jon/Robb), are the ones who are trying to stay honorable or “good.” Ned’s death already set the stage for this, but the Red Wedding is probably where it’s truly hammered home for the audience. There’s no honor at killing a few men at dinner, but it did win an entire war in one go.

Kylie: It’s a few men at dinner, plus the thousands and thousands outside. I’d argue that Tywin was well beyond “a little evil” here.

The Butterfly Effect (cracks in the plaster)

Julia: I think the biggest effect from making the Red Wedding the climax of the season is for Arya’s plot, since she really needed to be there but all the heavy stuff for her is before. She really has nothing at all to do next season.

Kylie: She was done poorly by this season, too. What are we to make of her arc? There’s a reason her getting on a boat to Braavos was supposed to be the endpoint for her in this chapter.

Overall though, this is it. This is the ~shocking moment~ D&D would and still do strive to reach in all other seasons. How can they top this? How can they have more and more reaction videos like the one around this? How can it hurt even more? The reception to this episode is why we get Shireen burning after scenes of her and Stannis bonding, as well as Cersei’s big boom. It all begins here, and even taking it from the books, D&D had to add in their own methods of turning the screws.

I think stepping back, I find it increasingly upsetting that the slaughter begin with a close-up shot of the pregnant woman getting repeatedly stabbed in the stomach. It’s just so indicative of what’s to come, as well as being the end of Talisa, a character who only existed to give Robb someone “better” than the books. Who was she in her own right? Never mattered.

Dan: Can you fridge a character for audience angst? She’d fit for Robb but he doesn’t really get a lot of time to be troubled by it before he gets some regards.

I fully agree that this is the “high” that D&D and HBO have been trying to capture again and again ever since. And, like most junkies, they’re never going to. Without Martin’s careful plotting all the subsequent twists just get cheaper and cheaper, and I’d argue they’re still coasting on this episode in the public consciousness.

The Red Wedding as a whole is also just bloodier and gorier than the book, with Talisa being the standout example. It’s the jumping off point for the show to go from “violent and visceral” to “torture porn.”

Musa: There’s something to be said about the way they handled the sequence. The mood lighting of the all the scenes at The Twins works, but it’s also really dim at parts. This is just a problem that gets progressively worse throughout the series where eventually you can barely see anything that’s going on in the scene. I’ve commented on this on episodes past as well, but there’s a difference between mood lighting a scene for dramatic purposes and just plain ol’ forgetting to light the scene altogether.

Julia: You know, I don’t think I’ve noticed that the no-lighting thing isn’t a problem yet, but you’re right. Even when the Brotherhood without Banners was in a literal dark cave I had no trouble seeing anything. Compare that to the House of Dark and Vague just two seasons later.

Kylie: Coldplay was very well lit.

Remember adaptation?

Julia: Wow, well. It’s a well known fact that the Red Wedding was the big thing that D&D wanted to adapt when they started making this show, so how did they do?

The one detail that I found most jarring was when Cat comments about how good the musicians are and I was like, “No! They’re supposed to suck! And the food is supposed to be shitty!”

Dan: While I agree to some extent, I do like the greater contrast between the trappings of the wedding and the massacre. Having it seem like an extremely obvious setup just makes Robb and Co. seem ever dumber, though it also reflects the hubris of the Freys.

Kylie: I’m actually with Dan on this. I honestly don’t think an inept band would have worked in a visual medium. It’s a little too silly.

Dan: Still, the inclusion of Talisa is always gonna stick in my craw for adaptation purposes. Always felt two-dimensional, not as interesting as Jeyne (which is a feat), and fridged for a character who dies like five minutes later.

Musa: Talisa aside, I do have a serious bone to pick with the way this episode framed and led up to the Red Wedding. Barring the fact that all the supernatural foreshadowing of dreams and visions was pretty much entirely excised from the show because of their arbitrary ‘no magic but the dragons’ rule, the Red Wedding should have been a sequence that is foreshadowed and built up properly. Martin did this stupendously, not just with the magical foreshadowing but just the building of dread and unease in the actual chapters leading up to the event, as well as the event itself.

The Catelyn chapters at The Twins are some of the most disturbing and eerily depressing chapters of the entire series. In contrast, up until the massacre actually happens in the show, it’s basically a regular Game of Thrones episode. Even the wedding itself seems oddly uplifting and cheerful, which was definitely NOT the mood of the corresponding chapters in the books. There’s no ‘DOOM BOOM’ here, which is disappointing to say the least. I’m inclined to say this is just the writer’s obsession with shock and awe twists that compelled them to go the complete 180 degree turn route rather than a slow build up to the inevitable that was in the books, but it could just be incompetence as well.

I’ll also say that the scene with Jon where his cover is finally blown doesn’t really work for me if Ygritte knew all along that Jon had not actually defected. There’s no betrayal there anymore. She KNEW Jon was still “a crow” and yet she STILL acts as if he’s let her down somehow? There’s just no conflict there that the writers aren’t pulling out of thin air. They were so intent on having Ygritte be a “strong, independent, sex-positive woman” that it couldn’t be true that she was actually falling for a guy who, unbeknownst to her, was still an enemy. There’s really no tragedy to this break-up in the show, though I wasn’t really as compelled by it as you guys were to begin with, so I don’t know.

Kylie: It was framed like, “I guess she thinks she’d change his mind” or something. Then there’s a mini-betrayal when Jon won’t let her defend him and run off with him, because he’s…you know, going back to his celibate order. Which she knows. But they did a good job the past few episodes of showing how Jon and Ygritte clearly know the situation they’re in is fleeting and hopeless. So you’re right, the “betrayal” set up just was never a thing.

It also made Jon’s, “You were right about me all along” to Orell rather silly. So was everyone else, Jon.

Exposition Imposition: good or clunky?

Kylie: The Fat Walda exposition was seamless. I’ll also admit to being a little in love with Michael McElhatton. He can exposit at me all day, if the situation requires it.

Julia: The only other exposition I can think of is the two attack planning scenes, one for Robb and Cat, and the other for Dany and her squad.

The Robb and Cat plan to attack Casterly Rock is a staircase to nowhere, but it seems like a serviceable staircase? I suppose it does a good job establishing why he’s willing to demean himself to get the Frey’s support and updates us on where all the armies are.

The Dany scene is fine too. It’s good at letting us know that Dany has the hots for the guy that burst in on her in the bath last week.

Kylie: Oh, and the bread and salt as protection was mostly implicit, rather than some clunky dialogue about its meaning. I do think that since we never saw it established before, it actually detracts from just how much of a horrible social taboo this was, but I guess we’ll learn about that in post next week via Bran.

Dan: Agreement all around, which is surprising because the Essos scenes are usually only clunky exposition. And ditto on McElhatton expositing at me.

How was the pacing?

Julia: One thing I will say, all three plotlines seem to have taken place in a similar time-frame, that is, about a day and a night. 10 points to Gryffindor for that because in a few years that will be an impossible bar for them to clear.

Dan: I think either the stuff in the North or the stuff in the East could have been cut. While neither drag in any way, they just seem to fill the need for the camera to show us where they are. Either would have been fine shunted to Episode 10.

Kylie: There was something about the mill showdown that didn’t work for me, pacing-wise. I felt very restless. Meanwhile at the wedding, I was shocked we got to the bedding ceremony as soon as we did. I remembered there being more of a build-up. But I’d say it was at least a decently paced episode, all things considered.

There was no sex, baby

Kylie: Just some sexy map touching, yet again. What is with D&D and that?

Musa: Map touching is just one step away from fucking on your map table. Oh my god! Cersei’s going to have sex on the Floor Map™ in season 8! Confirmed here first!

Dan: Michael McElhatton had some lines so…that’s pretty close in my book.

Julia: This show has a thing for minor characters being played by actors with sex voices. Iain Glen and the dude who plays Beric Dondarrion come to mind, too.

The camera really wanted Dany and Daario eye-humping to be about Jorah’s feelings didn’t it? Is this that thing I’ve heard about on the internet called the “male gaze,” by any chance?

Kylie: The more I think about it, the plotline since Dany got the Unsullied has been Jorah’s. His feelings on Barristan joining, his reactions to Daario, his seeking of her acceptance. Yay.

In memoriam…The North, old man with horses

Kylie: I just want to start with a big thank you to director David “It would have been gratuitous to show Stannis’s death but here’s a pregnant woman getting stabbed in the stomach multiple times to open things up” Nutter.

Okay. We’re naturally going to care the most (or be the most disgusted) by Robb, Cat, and Talisa’s deaths. Oh, and Greywind too. But I do think this episode did a decent job of showing the entire Northern forces being wiped out, and I really want to jam it into the face of anyone who finds Tywin’s remark about killing a handful at dinner compelling.

Dan: This is basically RIP to Osha and Rickon too, right? We just don’t see them anymore after this outside of what, a brief bit of murder that makes no damn sense? This is arguably where the show gave up on them, so I count it as a death.

And don’t forget about our good buddy Six-Skins, who was the only wildling able to see through Jon’s paper thin disguise. At least he gets to be a dope bird now.

Musa: Pretty sure that was Orell, not Varamyr. Not like it matters much, he’s dead all the same.

Julia: I agree with Dan, and I’m still mad about it!

Kylie: Well in fairness, had Bran known that Roose Bolton was about to betray the Starks to take control of the North, and then Ramsay would impressively kill his own father to bring “new blood” in, he might have realized that Lord Umber would clearly support that action, and put Shaggydog to the knife. Duh.

But as obvious as that might be to us, D&D still have to spend the next few years getting there. Which means we will have to pick this up next week. What were your thoughts on the Red Wedding? Did it live up to memory? Are Julia and I soulless? We’re curious to hear, and as always, we wish you good fortune in The Wars to Come.

Images courtesy of HBO

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